Code of Compassion: AI, Advocacy, and Emotional Intelligence

Guest Speaker: Michael McCarthy, PhD                                   

Recording Date: May 22, 2025

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In this episode, Anna Smith talks with Dr. Michael McCarthy about the intersection of emotional intelligence, AI, and disability advocacy. They explore how past injustices—like institutionalization and forced sterilization—still affect modern healthcare and education. Dr. McCarthy explains the importance of emotional intelligence in these fields, evaluates current training programs, and shares how leaders can use EI to build compassionate teams. The episode ends with a look at how emotional intelligence and AI can help prevent systemic harm to marginalized groups.

Transcript

(Announcer)

We begin by acknowledging that the land on which we are gathered is the seized territory of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.

(Announcer)

Which includes the Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, Oneida, Mohawk, and Tuscarora Nations.

(Announcer)

Truth and acknowledgement are critical to building mutual respect and connection.

(Announcer)

We pay respects to the elders of the Haudenosaunee, past and present.

(Announcer)

Please take a moment to consider that we are here as a result of a history of violence and displacement.

(Anna Smith)

Welcome to the podcast! I'm Anna Smith, I'm…. Uh, the head of the History of Medicine section at the Minor Library in….

(Anna Smith)

The University of Rochester Medical Center. And I am joined by Michael McCarthy, and I will turn it over to him to introduce himself.

(Michael McCarthy)

Thanks for having me. I am Mike McCarthy, and so I am currently a post-doctoral associate at…

(Michael McCarthy)

The Education Collaboratory at Yale, which is housed within the Yale Child Study Center and the Yale School of Medicine.

(Michael McCarthy)

We mainly focus on K-12 education, but we are branching out.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, so it's a little odd for us to be in the, uh, the medical, um, departments, but, um, that's where we are. And so.

(Michael McCarthy)

I am a researcher in developmental and educational sciences, and I specialize in the intersection of disability studies, social-emotional learning and family dynamics.

(Anna Smith)

That's a bit of a mouthful.

(Laughter)

(Anna Smith)

I'll jump in. So, what led you to pursuing your PhD in teaching and curriculum at Warner?

(Anna Smith)

And since finishing the program, what projects have you been working on?

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, my path toward, uh. The Warner School of, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

Human education and human development is kind of…. Odd. Um….

(Michael McCarthy)

So, I started out in history and human rights. I was interested in becoming a PhD.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, in history, um. And I was interested a little bit about into the library sciences.

(Michael McCarthy)

And navigating that world. Um, but then I moved toward….

(Michael McCarthy)

Human Rights, peacebuilding, and focusing on individuals with disabilities within the broader international community, so not just in the United States.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, and so I did a lot of policy work, and….

(Michael McCarthy)

Work related to early child development. Early childhood health and education.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, mainly international, so doing studies, uh, overseas. Um, partnering with UNICEF, things like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and one day, I reached out to the University of Rochester and was interested in the Education Policy Program.

(Michael McCarthy)

And they said, you know what, we don't think that you're a really great fit.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, we don't have anybody specializing in early child development at the time.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, or individuals with disabilities, uh, at least in the policy department.

(Michael McCarthy)

And, uh, and so, you know, I got a job doing something else, and then I reached back out.

(Michael McCarthy)

And I talked to somebody else, and they said, hey, you know what?

(Michael McCarthy)

I think… I think you would be a really good fit in the teaching and curriculum department. And I said, whoa, you know, I'm not a teacher or anything like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

But what I wanted to do. Was to educate people on, um...

(Michael McCarthy)

How individuals with disabilities are being viewed in society, how they're being treated.

(Michael McCarthy)

How they interact, um, within our system, so our political, economic, and social systems.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, but also, I want…. I was interested in helping families navigate the emotional challenges that may arise.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, um…. while interacting with these systems when they have a child with intellectual and developmental disabilities. And so, not so much…

(Michael McCarthy)

Teaching in the sense of K-12 education. But in educating various stakeholders, including families and parents who may be parenting or working with individuals with disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so after leaving Warner, I…. Join the Education Collaboratory, and I've worked on a number of projects. We mainly focus on social-emotional learning in K-12 education.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, but we have branched out, and we are partnering with Special Olympics.

(Michael McCarthy)

to conduct an inclusive practices study, meaning that we are assessing how inclusion is defined and implemented.

(Michael McCarthy)

Across the globe within K-12 settings. Um, I've also been working on an initiative, which I'll probably talk about later in this podcast.

(Michael McCarthy)

Where I use AI, um. To follow and track disability discourse here in America.

(Anna Smith)

All right. Well, since you've done a lot of work in disability advocacy.

(Anna Smith)

Can you tell us what ways the past institutionalization and sterilization of individuals with disabilities…

(Anna Smith)

still appears as an issue in modern systems of healthcare and education.

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, I, um, I think it's a good opportunity to kind of discuss the history first, which is….

(Michael McCarthy)

A history that is overlooked. Um, and somewhat undermined within, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

the context of U.S. History, and just history in general, and so….

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, for most of history, people with disabilities, specifically people with intellectual disabilities and developmental disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

Have been deeply misunderstood, excluded, and even abused. You know, even, uh, you know.

(Michael McCarthy)

Up in, uh, through modern times. Um, and this is largely because of the dominant models and perceptions that society has held about people with disabilities, and this shift.

(Michael McCarthy)

Across these models and perceptions has been relatively slow, and so….

(Michael McCarthy)

We can, like, trace it all the way back into, like, ancient civilizations.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, where, like, Greece and Rome. Um, they, you know, those societies.

(Michael McCarthy)

Were all about prioritizing physical strength and utility, um…. Especially war, for war, and so people with disabilities, including those with intellectual disabilities, were often

(Michael McCarthy)

Viewed as inferior, or in some cases, curse. Um, you know, in ancient Greece, uh, it has been known that babies who didn't fit the ideal

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, you know, human form that was believed were sometimes killed at birth, and….

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, you know, even in ancient Egypt and other, you know, dominant society, disabilities were seen through more of, like, a religious lens, and that's where this idea of

(Michael McCarthy)

People with disabilities were somehow viewed as being cursed. And they needed to be lifted with spells.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and then…. Tracing all the way back to Rome, we start to see how the view and perceptions of people with disabilities would then impact, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

More modern society, and so in Rome, they term… they had… they use the term imbecilis, and so that….

(Michael McCarthy)

Move toward this medical, uh, dominant perception of people with disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

Which frame disability as a personal weakness or flaw that essentially needed to be cured or fixed.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, this kind of lasted all the way up until the Middle Ages, even, like, through the 1700s. Um, and was kind of built into….

(Michael McCarthy)

English law, and so…. Words like idiot, um, were used to, um, define.

(Michael McCarthy)

Property and affairs and things like that, and…. Um, even up to the 1800s.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, you know, this, this view of, of, of…. Inferior-ness dominated, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

How society viewed people with disabilities, which led to the rise of institutions, and so a lot of people don't know this here in the United States, specifically.

(Michael McCarthy)

That institutionalization was…. The norm for people with disabilities, especially intellectual and developmental disabilities, and this largely stems from the medical model, which

(Michael McCarthy)

Saw the person with disabilities as a defect, disease, or weakness that needed to be cured, managed, or removed.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, this thinking led to this segregate, like, the rise of segregated institutions.

(Michael McCarthy)

Where people…. With intellectual disabilities were sent there

(Michael McCarthy)

Not necessarily to be fixed, as they were marketed to be, but

(Michael McCarthy)

To be hidden and controlled and be segregated away from society.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so some of the more well-known institutions that existed in the 19th and early 20th century.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, or the Willbrook State School in New York…and then the Pennhurst State School and Hospital in Pennsylvania.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and within these institutions, there was…. Systemic abuse. Um, they….

(Michael McCarthy)

They were…. Prison-like conditions, there was overcrowding.

(Michael McCarthy)

Neglect, um…. You know, it was just inhumane. Uh, residents were found unclothed, sometimes tied down.

(Michael McCarthy)

With chains, they were covered in their own waste. Um, it was really horrific living conditions.

(Michael McCarthy)

That people don't realize were happening in the 1950s. 60s and 70s, um….

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, you know, a lot of this was fueled by this eugenics movement, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

Which promoted the idea that, you know, intellectual disability and disabilities in general are hereditary and dangerous to society.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and this actually led to a Supreme Court ruling. That, uh, result… that legalized sterilizations. Um, and so….

(Michael McCarthy)

I think the ruling was in, uh, 1927. It was a case called Buck v. Bell, and so, like, the….

(Michael McCarthy)

The Supreme Court justice who wrote the majority opinion. The infamous quote was, three generations of imbeciles are enough, which was….

(Michael McCarthy)

The rationale to, like, sterilize individuals with intellectual disabilities. Um, because it was thought that.

(Michael McCarthy)

This, um, you know, these genes would be passed down, and then eventually…

(Michael McCarthy)

The community would be overrun by people with intellectual. Uh, developmental disabilities. And so, families were told that

(Michael McCarthy)

Sending their children away was best, and the only option, and….

(Michael McCarthy)

That institutionalization was the right approach. So yeah, it was a very dangerous, uh, movement that lasted.

(Michael McCarthy)

For decades in the United States, um…. There wasn't a shift in perspective until.

(Michael McCarthy)

The 1950s, 60s, and 70s were… where parents began to speak out, and.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, some more notable parents, uh, were, were actors. Um, and… and authors.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so they… they began to show the public that, hey, you know, people with disabilities can feel love, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

Express emotion and live meaningful lives. And so, this really challenged the medical clinical view of disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

And then eventually, President Kennedy emerged and became a strong advocate for helping people with disabilities, and especially intellectual and developmental disabilities, and in 1961.

(Michael McCarthy)

He launched the President's Panel on, um, Mental retardation, which recommended that services be provided in the community and family settings, so it began to set the tone

(Michael McCarthy)

To remove institutionalization and segregation out of society. Uh, and then eventually, in the 1990s, um, there was a movement

(Michael McCarthy)

From the medical model to what's called the functional model. Which didn't really see disability as a problem, or something that needed to be fixed. Instead, it recognized disability.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um. That disability emerges from the interaction that people have

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, with the environment around them, right? So it took the blame off the person with disabilities and started to blame

(Michael McCarthy)

Society to be more accessible and equitable to people, to people with disabilities, and so….

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, so yeah, and so that's just a long dive into the history of it.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, but to answer the question is that… that really set the stage for a lot of things.

(Michael McCarthy)

That are still in existence today in society, and so…. Um, you know, special education

(Michael McCarthy)

In the United States is relatively new. And the biomedical model kind of dominates that. There is a shift toward a more functional

(Michael McCarthy)

Approach, um, and you have laws like IDEA. Um….

(Michael McCarthy)

And things like that, but uh…. But yeah, so….

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, we are still working, you know, as an advocate. We are still working toward breaking down the barriers that were put up because of these models like

(Michael McCarthy)

The medical model, and, you know, people are still. There's constant lawsuits out there of, of, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, trying to promote disability rights. Um, even in the school systems and K-12 education, there's always a constant battle of

(Michael McCarthy)

Inclusive education practices, rights to services. Are they going to fund these services?

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, yeah. That’s a really long way to answer that question.

(Anna Smith)

Well, and hearing you go through the history, I was thinking about the timeline that's on your website, which I know will probably come up later, but….

(Anna Smith)

I really appreciated that from the…. An archivist's viewpoint of….

(Anna Smith)

That that was worked in.

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And we're still trying to build that out, but yeah.

(Anna Smith)

Well, and for people listening, I'll just say that if you want to review any of that, it's….

(Anna Smith)

You did a pretty good job of…. Summarizing, but….

(Anna Smith)

Yeah, there's a… there's more there.

(Michael McCarthy)

Right, yeah.

(Anna Smith)

Uh, so next, uh, can you explain what emotional intelligence is?

(Anna Smith)

And how it relates to your work.

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, so emotional intelligence….

(Michael McCarthy)

It's interesting. So, if you speak to different people in the field of social-emotional learning or social-emotional development.

(Michael McCarthy)

They may define emotional intelligence very differently from one another. There is a little bit of a split in what emotional intelligence is, and so there's two main perspectives.

(Michael McCarthy)

There’s trait emotional intelligence, and then there's…. Another form of emotional intelligence that is probably more ability-focused, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so trait emotional intelligence refers to individuals’ self-perceived emotional abilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

And is considered part of their inherent personality, and so it encompasses how people view their capacity to recognize, manage, and use emotions effectively in themselves and others.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um. There's a famous measure that was developed using the trait, uh, emotional intelligence, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

It's called… I think it's called the Trait Emotional Intelligence, actually, Questionnaire.

(Michael McCarthy)

And then there's, in contrast to trait emotional intelligence, there's this

(Michael McCarthy)

Ability-focused emotional intelligence, which conceptualizes emotional intelligence as a set of actual cognitive abilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, which is more akin toward traditional forms of intelligence that can be measured, kind of like an IQ test.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so it is assessed through more person… or more performance-based tests to evaluate

(Michael McCarthy)

How well a person can solve a motion-related problems? Um, and so that… the ability-focused emotional intelligence

(Michael McCarthy)

Has several components to it, and so it assesses how well somebody may perceive emotions, and so.

(Michael McCarthy)

Perceiving emotions as the foundational skill that involves recognizing emotions in oneself and others through

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, you know, verbal ways, uh, like how they're communicating emotions, nonverbal ways, so maybe different, you know, changes in body language.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, you know, facial movements. Um, and more physiological cues, uh, you know, maybe

(Michael McCarthy)

Feeling sick, um…. Uh, you know, heightened blood pressure, things like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so, when a person that can perceive emotions well, it involves, like, accurate emotional labeling.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so…. That then leads into another component of emotional intelligence, which is how someone facilitates thought using emotions, and that's basically when

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, emotions, recognizing emotions influence cognitive processes by shaping your attention.

(Michael McCarthy)

Your memory, and your decision-making, and so individuals can intentionally elicit or adapt emotions to fit situational demands.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and one scholar in the field refers to this as an emotional rudder, right?

(Michael McCarthy)

It's your ability to guide social behavior and internal reasoning. Um, within certain contexts. And then, um, how well somebody understands emotions

(Michael McCarthy)

Which is, how can…. Somebody appraise emotions in themselves, anticipate emotional changes in others, understand how emotion

(Michael McCarthy)

Unfold and change throughout time. Um, and then how effective somebody can actually manage, uh, their emotions.

(Michael McCarthy)

And, um, the way… how I use it is I don't….

(Michael McCarthy)

I'm… I'm not in the…. space of picking sides of, like, which emotional intelligence is the right framework. I think they complement one another, and so in my own work

(Michael McCarthy)

I use both of them, and so while at the University of Rochester, I did a study

(Michael McCarthy)

For my dissertation that examined the emotional intelligence and emotional functioning of

(Michael McCarthy)

Neurotypical siblings in middle childhood who have a brother or a sister with intellectual disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, what we found was that, um. That, yes, like, we can assess their emotional intelligence, how well they understand emotions and themselves and in others, how well they can manage their emotions, how well.

(Michael McCarthy)

They can pick up on subtle emotional cues elicited by not just themselves, but other people.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, but also that…. Growing up in an environment

(Michael McCarthy)

With a brother, sister, or disabilities does lead to this kind of trait emotional intelligence. And so.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um. You know, how I use it is….

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, emotions shouldn't just be…. Isolated into, like, a test.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, we should be looking at what's shaping emotions, and so….

(Michael McCarthy)

When you think about it, very different… we as people are interacting with different systems.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so the… those systems are influencing how we develop our social-emotional foundation, and how we interact with people.

(Michael McCarthy)

How we convey our emotions, how we manage our emotions. Um, and so I studied the family context using this approach and found that

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, a lot of times the emotional intelligence

(Michael McCarthy)

That was, um…. I guess conveyed by the neurotypical siblings.

(Michael McCarthy)

Was influenced by how they interacted with their family members. Um, and so they developed certain emotional skills

(Michael McCarthy)

Based on who they are interacting with, who they are watching, who they were communicating with.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so on. And so…. That's one way I use it. The other way I use it….

(Michael McCarthy)

Is to also say that emotional intelligence. Um.

(Michael McCarthy)

Shouldn't just be…. Something that we should be telling people, like, we shouldn't just be saying to people, hey.

(Michael McCarthy)

We need to develop emotional intelligence skills. Here's… here's the reasons why. Um….

(Michael McCarthy)

I think that's… it's a bad look. Uh, I think that it….

(Michael McCarthy)

Can make people feel bad, it can make people feel like they're inadequate, but the reality is.

(Michael McCarthy)

Is that the way we… we…. Interact emotionally with the world around us is shaped

(Michael McCarthy)

By our own personal experiences and upbringings, and so I try to convey that into my work. And so, like, an example would be, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

I do a lot of work with, uh, in the..regarding K-12 education, and so we study how social-emotional learning programs are implemented in schools across the U.S, and we found that, uh

(Michael McCarthy)

Teachers have a major…. They're the major challenge of

(Michael McCarthy)

Successful SEL implementation. It's not because they don't want to do it, or they don't believe in social-emotional learning.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, but for a variety of other reasons, such as time, you know, our teachers are overburdened and things like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

But also, a lot of teachers don't feel comfortable talking about emotions in the classroom. And so,

(Michael McCarthy)

A lot of people will say, well, like, then you need extra training and things like that, and to… to….

(Michael McCarthy)

To be more emotionally intelligent. Um, but I think that's the wrong approach, and so I bring in these frameworks of emotional intelligence into the conversation, and I say, hey, look.

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, our emotional intelligence is developed by who we are as people, our own personal upbringing, and….

(Michael McCarthy)

When we say that somebody needs to work on their emotional intelligence skills, we're… we're essentially blaming them for something that is inherently part of

(Michael McCarthy)

Of who they are. Um….and I think that's wrong. And so, in a lot of the work that I do, I say, we need to take a step back and

(Michael McCarthy)

And say, you know what? Some teachers may not feel comfortable talking about

(Michael McCarthy)

Social-emotional development in classrooms, because they may have experienced trauma, right, as a childhood, and they have learned to actually

(Michael McCarthy)

Suppress their emotions, and that's how they interact with emotions and things like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, so that's just kind of another long way of…explaining emotional intelligence and how I use it, I would say that I don't use it the way

(Michael McCarthy)

That the people that develop the emotional intelligence framework intended it for.

(Michael McCarthy)

I kind of use it as….Like, guiding my research, but also arguing that if we're going to talk about emotional intelligence, we have to talk about

(Michael McCarthy)

People's history. And say, hey, this isn't just a set of cognitive skills, it is

(Michael McCarthy)

Inherent in somebody's personality.

(Anna Smith)

Well, that leads me right into my next question, really talking about teachers and how they're approaching

(Anna Smith)

This in the classroom. Um…. But also medical training. So, are current teacher….

(Anna Smith)

And medical training programs adequately addressing emotional intelligence skills?

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, yeah, um….

(Michael McCarthy)

I… think that in any profession, we are not adequately addressing this at all. Um, a lot of this stems to what we call adult social-emotional learning, and so there are

(Michael McCarthy)

These groups of people that go in and offer professional development opportunities, um

(Michael McCarthy)

For, you know, corporations, businesses, practitioners, medical professionals. Uh, and they basically teach about, you know, social-emotional skills and things like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um…. So I don't want to say….

(Michael McCarthy)

Say, no, like, like, the medical training programs or teacher training programs are not adequately addressing this, because I think it's not fair. I think we're just not in general anywhere, and I think that's

(Michael McCarthy)

Part of the problem, and if you think about it. It's largely because of how our current society, at least in the United States, operates. So, if you think about.

(Michael McCarthy)

When we walk into a room. Or we jump on Zoom nowadays, whatever it is, and we say

(Michael McCarthy)

Hey, how are you today? Right? We are expecting a simple response, and it's normally the same response. “I'm fine, I'm good, I'm alright,” right?

(Michael McCarthy)

But what if somebody came into that room and said, “I'm not good?”

(Michael McCarthy)

Like, I'm, like…. I'm not… I'm not well today. Like, I'm having a hard day.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, like, I'm struggling, right? That's not the norm. And so, when somebody comes into the room and says that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Right? Um…. You know, we have to ask ourselves is, how would we respond, and can we respond?

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and before I got into the social-emotional development world. That's what I did. Like, that's what I practiced, is I would say, hey, how are you? I expected somebody to say, fine, and then we moved on, right?

(Michael McCarthy)

It's almost like we're asking these questions. Just to ask them, just to be polite, and not really wanting the real response.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, now that I'm in a lab focusing on social-emotional learning.

(Michael McCarthy)

It's pretty typical for somebody to come in and say, “You know what, I'm having a pretty bad day.”

(Michael McCarthy)

And then we sit there, and we talk about it, right? And so we're open.

(Michael McCarthy)

And we're engaging in that. And that is really important.

(Michael McCarthy)

Right? For medical professionals, other clinicians, even practitioners, teachers, whoever. Right? To learn how to do.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, because, you know, if I go back to the example with somebody, with a parent who is.

(Michael McCarthy)

Expecting to have a child with disabilities, or who has a child with disabilities, sometimes

(Michael McCarthy)

Their only interactions, or their only initial support systems, are with medical professionals at first.

(Michael McCarthy)

And oftentimes, they're confused, they're scared. They're… they're not necessarily because they have a child with disabilities, but

(Michael McCarthy)

About how to navigate the system. And so we need to help professionals, right, that are working with, regardless of what profession it is, working with families, with

(Michael McCarthy)

Individuals with disabilities, we need to say. We need to be able to talk with them on a personal level, to understand how they're feeling.

(Michael McCarthy)

But not just all they understand how they're feeling, but how to respond to their feelings.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so that requires… it does require a set of emotional intelligence skills, right?

(Michael McCarthy)

You need to pick up some parents might not be comfortable expressing their emotions, so we need to pick up on body language.

(Michael McCarthy)

We need to pick up on eye movement, we need to pick up on….

(Michael McCarthy)

Maybe tone. Um, and we need to ask some… we need to ask those hard questions.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, you know, which is, it seems simple, but how are you feeling? How can I help you?

(Michael McCarthy)

And what do you need, uh, from me? And so…. Um, I think about….

(Michael McCarthy)

My own upbringing, and I didn't say this earlier, but I am a sibling to…

(Michael McCarthy)

I have a sister, Nicole, who has significant intellectual and development disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, she has a rare chromosome, um, diagnosis, so there isn't many people in the world that has what she has, and it took 13 years for her to be

(Michael McCarthy)

adequately diagnosed. And so, my mom likes to always say.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, you know, I didn't have anybody else. I only had the doctors that I communicated with

(Michael McCarthy)

On a daily basis. Um…. And I felt that I only had 10% of the support, and 90% of the time I was on my own.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and she said it wasn't until she started interacting with other parents that have children with disabilities

(Michael McCarthy)

She was able to convey, you know, her emotions and get that emotional support that she needed.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, so yeah.

(Anna Smith)

Yeah, what you said, it's definitely an across-the-board thing. I'm thinking about just… just being a manager.

(Anna Smith)

Or just being out in life. It needs to be a… yeah, and there's a difference between asking, how are you doing and how are you feeling.

(Anna Smith)

And what we're expecting to get back, and

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, yeah, I remember the first time.

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, I remember the first time I walked into. A room with a bunch of social-emotional learning experts, and somebody asks what everybody was doing, and somebody was like, yeah.

(Michael McCarthy)

I'm depressed right now. And I was like, whoa. Like, what… what is going on here, right? Because I never expected that

(Michael McCarthy)

To be a conversation topic, um…. But it helps, right? It helps the person on the other end.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, it also helps you develop the skills necessary to interact with those types of situations. I don't know, I think it's just really important, I think, that we sometimes realize that.

(Michael McCarthy)

We're not… like, we're all humans, we're all feeling something. At any given time, and we need to learn

(Michael McCarthy)

That if we want to, not everybody wants to, it's okay

(Michael McCarthy)

To be able to express ourselves with other people.

(Anna Smith

There's so much, so many different directions, but. I'll ask this. How can leaders in education and healthcare use emotional intelligence to build more resilient and compassionate teams?

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, uh, it's tricky, right? Because it goes back to what I was saying, is that, um….

(Michael McCarthy)

Everybody has their own emotional profile, their own emotional personality that was developed over time. Like, we don't know what….

(Michael McCarthy)

Leaders in health, you know, some, you know, people in…. Like, whatever, whoever the leader is in healthcare or education, we don't….

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, we don't know to the extent of how they dealt with emotions growing up, how they deal with emotions on their own, outside of, like

(Michael McCarthy)

Their professions. So, we are asking a lot, um…. But if we had to recommend

(Michael McCarthy)

How leaders in education and healthcare use it… kind of use emotional intelligence to build more resilient and compassionate teams. I would say that

(Michael McCarthy)

One, we could model emotional awareness and regulation. So, you know, leaders who recognize and manage their own emotions

(Michael McCarthy)

Can set the tone for more emotionally healthy workplaces. You know, it's like, I keep bringing up my own lab at the Education Laboratory at Yale, is that

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, this is pretty frequent. Uh, we have…. Our lab meetings, we have these, like, emotional check-ins.

(Michael McCarthy)

And it really sets the tone. And the vibe, right, of the lab.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, when leaders respond calmly to stress or acknowledge that their own emotions, or emotions of others within… on their team may trigger, um

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, other people, you know, like. We have to be self-aware.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so I would imagine that this builds resilience by normalizing emotional self-regulation, and it kind of reduces reactive behavior.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, another thing could simply just be fostering empathy and understanding?

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, you know, in both education and healthcare, professionals often. You know, encounter these emotionally charged situations

(Michael McCarthy)

I can't even imagine what some of the medical professionals…even education professionals,

(Michael McCarthy)

Hear or see on a daily basis, and how they have to process that on their own

(Michael McCarthy)

As well, but leaders who actively listen and validate, right? So, we always talk about

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, validating emotions. You may not agree with somebody's emotions.

(Michael McCarthy)

Right? Or you may not agree with something that somebody says, but we can validate that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so when leaders validate team members' experiences. Uh, that can promote, you know, more….

(Michael McCarthy)

Of a sense of, like, psychological safety, um, maybe even trust.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, it encourages open dialogue, and it reduces these feelings of isolation.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and also compassionate leadership. Just enhances, you know, team cohesion and trust 

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, so when you… when you're conveying as a leader empathy and understanding, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, you'll get that in return. It does… it does spread.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, strengthening communication, I mean, you can't have any of this without communication, so leaders

(Michael McCarthy)

Essentially, with high emotional intelligence are skilled at tailoring their communication to the emotional needs of their audience.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, um, you know, that could be a variety of things. That can be de-escalating conflicts.

(Michael McCarthy)

Clarifying misunderstandings, delivering feedback in ways that still maintain a person's dignity.

(Michael McCarthy)

I think feedback is one of the most difficult things that a leader can give, because you have… you have a fine balance, you have to do it in a way that

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, doesn't undermine or demean that other person. So, when we strengthen communication, and our communication skills,

(Michael McCarthy)

We essentially nurture mutual respect and collaboration across our team. Um, another thing is supporting

(Michael McCarthy)

Emotional resilience, so…. One of the great things that my boss, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

I think Education Collaborative does really well. Um…. Is recognizing signs of stress, uh, or burnout.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, when a leader sees that, uh, it's their opportunity to build, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

Emotional resilience, and so they can respond by proactively promoting well-being initiatives such as.

(Michael McCarthy)

Check-ins, which we do, flexible scheduling. Um, you know, things like that.

(Anna Smith)

That's all important stuff. So, how can AI and emotional intelligence help us prevent future systemic harm against marginalized groups, including people with disabilities?

(Michael McCarthy)

Yes, so this question, obviously, is toward our initiative at the Education Collaboratory, Disability DiscourseMatters.org.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, so to provide a little context. Um, this initiative….

(Michael McCarthy)

Is… so Disability Discourse Matters, what it does is it analyzes public statements by political leaders across the U.S, so at the federal, state

(Michael McCarthy)

And local governments. Um…. It goes and it searches, uh, so you leverage AI to search for these public statements.

(Michael McCarthy)

And then based on our scoring, we have a 4-point scoring system, which I'll get into in a second.

(Michael McCarthy)

Basically, monitors discourse around disability. From dehumanizing language to promoting a value of the whole person, and this is really….

(Michael McCarthy)

Important, because as I shared earlier with the history of disabilities here in this country and elsewhere.

(Michael McCarthy)

The way people talk about disabilities, especially our public figures that are responsible for promoting policies and laws.

(Michael McCarthy)

Shapes how society interacts with people with disabilities. So, like, as we see with the medical model.

(Michael McCarthy)

That shaped how we, um, interacted with people with disabilities back then, which was institutionalizing them.

(Michael McCarthy)

Saying that they need to be fixed, undermining their skills and abilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

Thinking that they can't join the workforce, they can't… they shouldn't have autonomy and self-determination and things like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so AI recently, right, has been used for maybe not the best purposes, and so we're trying to harness AI for good, and so.

(Michael McCarthy)

The context behind this really discourse Matters is the alarming and rising rate of dis… of negative

(Michael McCarthy)

Discourse around people with disabilities. So, um, recently, um, over the last couple years, there has been the return of the R-word, and when I mean R-word, we mean.

(Michael McCarthy)

Like, using the word retard as a slur, or to…. To dehumanize somebody, um, and so as.

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, recent as January, um…. Elon Musk on Twitter

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, or X now, used the word, uh, the R word, and

(Michael McCarthy)

A university, I believe it's Montclair State University tracked that word after he posted it and found that within a 7-day time period

(Michael McCarthy)

People saw that word and used it 312,000 times, which is incredibly alarming.

(Michael McCarthy)

Also, in the same month, the president of the United States only, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

A week into his second term, blamed a crash, an airline crash in Washington, D.C.

(Michael McCarthy)

On DEI hiring practices, but focused on. Saying that the FAA, um….

(Michael McCarthy)

Hired people with intellectual and developmental disabilities, which likely resulted in the reason for that crash.

(Michael McCarthy)

So, all of, you know, there's this rise, but it's not just, uh, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, it sounds like it's just like, uh…. One side of the political spectrum, but it's not. Recently, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

RFK Jr, who is… who is a registered independent, despite working for a Republican president.

(Michael McCarthy)

Spoke pretty, pretty, uh, gave a pretty lengthy speech about autism, and within that, calling it an epidemic, which suggests that people with autism are dangerous

(Michael McCarthy)

To society and listed all the various things that people with autism can't do.

(Michael McCarthy)

At a human rights event. Just a couple weeks ago, Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett from Texas.

(Michael McCarthy)

Referred to, um, the governor of Texas who uses a wheelchair as, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

Governor Hot Wheels, right? And uh…. And Joe Rogan, uh, which….

(Michael McCarthy)

I think he gets, like, 14 million views in his podcast a month.

(Michael McCarthy)

Or listens a month. Called The Return of the R-word one of, like, the great cultural

(Michael McCarthy)

Successes of, like, our time. And so, you know, we are seeing this discourse on both sides of the political spectrum, and that raised some red flags for us, because it happened pretty rapidly, and within a short period of time, that we know.

(Michael McCarthy)

That, uh, the way we talk about people with disabilities shapes, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

Laws and policies that are supposed to protect them and help them.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, disability discourse Matters stemmed from that, but it also stemmed from a personal experience as, uh, family experience as well.

(Michael McCarthy)

Which is, um. In the month of January, so a lot of things, I guess, are happening in January.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, my mom and my sister, again, who has intellectual and developmental disabilities, were flying home.

(Michael McCarthy)

Were about to fly home from Florida. Uh, she had an externalizing.

(Michael McCarthy)

I guess, behavior episode right before takeoff. She was sitting in a three-person seat.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, so it was her, my mom, and then, uh, just, uh, you know, a random stranger. And he, um….

(Michael McCarthy)

And she, um…. She had this externalizing behavior, my mom had to calm her down. She's non-verbal, so she's not loud. Uh, she doesn't….

(Michael McCarthy)

Yell, she doesn't talk, right? So it wasn't that. But she was fighting with my mom pretty aggressively, because, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

Something was going on. Um, you know, we're not entirely sure.

(Michael McCarthy)

And during that incident. Um, you know, she was… she was, uh….

(Michael McCarthy)

Being incredibly violent toward my mom. My mom was trying to restrain her.

(Michael McCarthy)

The stranger…. In the seat, asked my mom, you know, if he can help.

(Michael McCarthy)

And she said, well, you can hold my water bottle, or my soda, or whatever.

(Michael McCarthy)

And he did, and my mom kept apologizing during the incident, and he said, no, no, it's okay. He was showing

(Michael McCarthy)

Empathy, like, he understood the situation, he understood what was going on.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, but somebody else, not in that seat. Like, unaffected by that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, basically wanted her off the plane, um, and…. Uh, and got a flight attendant, and they kicked them both off the plane.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, whether that's right or wrong is a discussion, uh. Uh, for another day, um, but it was very traumatizing. And so.

(Michael McCarthy)

For both my sister and my mom. Um…. And….

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, after all the things that were going on and being said by our public leaders, and then this.

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, I wonder, like, why…. Did the person in that seat

(Michael McCarthy)

Like, why was he so empathetic to the situation where somebody else unaffected by this was not?

(Michael McCarthy)

And it really does stem from, right, how we view our personal beliefs

(Michael McCarthy)

Of people with disabilities. And how… what we view is shaped by how society views people with disabilities and treats people with disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, this… so this idea to track political discourse in America

(Michael McCarthy)

Emerged, and so what we do is we leverage AI. Because there are thousands and thousands of politicians and political leaders across the U.S. At the federal, state, and local levels that are saying

(Michael McCarthy)

These political statements, or statements regarding people with disabilities, and we want to know

(Michael McCarthy)

If they're harmful or not. And eventually, we want to use this data.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, to track how this shapes law and policy. And so.

(Michael McCarthy)

With Disability Discourse Matters does, and we're starting small, right, because this has never been done before.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, so right now, um, well, what it does is it pulls those quotes.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, it tracks the statements, it scores the statements, and then I'm not gonna go into all the technical stuff behind the scenes.

(Michael McCarthy)

It pops it out to a private server that hosts a dashboard that then is put on our website.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, all of this mapping of these public statements is live.

(Michael McCarthy)

And searchable on the website. And so, we started with 27 political figures associated with the White House

(Michael McCarthy)

And cabinet, um, track their political statements from January 1^st to April 17th, um….

(Michael McCarthy)

And scored them. We have a whole process. Everything we do is open science, meaning that

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, we have an open science page, which you can access on the website, where we

(Michael McCarthy)

We go step by step in our process for everything. We have technical reports for everything to show how everything is

(Michael McCarthy)

Done, so it's completely transparent. Um, and so, you know, what we found is that most people are using deficit framing language.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, the scale that we developed is a 4-point scale.

(Michael McCarthy)

One being dehumanizing language, so hate language, encouraging violence against people with disabilities, so….

(Michael McCarthy)

For example, during RFK Jr.'s confirmation hearing, the senator from Alabama

(Michael McCarthy)

Suggested that ADHD, um, is a fabricated diagnosis in that, you know,

(Michael McCarthy)

Kids with ADHD don't need medication. Um, but they can be treated with physical violence, which he said is a belt.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, so that would be scored as a 1. 2 is a, um….

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, critical, um…. Being critical of the abilities of people with disabilities to not just.

(Michael McCarthy)

Their physical and intellectual disabilities, but also their employment abilities. 3 is deficit framing, so not necessarily critical, but not necessarily promoting the whole person, and so we can be a deficit framing as

(Michael McCarthy)

We may have good intentions for the way we talk about people with disabilities may

(Michael McCarthy)

May focus on their deficits, or imply that they have deficits, and then four is

(Michael McCarthy)

Just promoting the whole person. And so, disability discourse matters. Strives to do three things. One,

(Michael McCarthy)

Track public discourse over time. To see if this is going to impact law and policy around people with disabilities and how it shapes societal perceptions of people with disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

Two, we are looking at harnessing AI as a cost-effective way, um, for advocacy, and so this can

(Michael McCarthy)

Be a blueprint for other people looking to see how, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

Discourse to tracking discourse around other groups of people. Um, that may be traditionally marginalized within our society.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so what we mean by cost-effective advocacy is that

(Michael McCarthy)

When you take out the human component of this project, and right now the human component is we validate everything, so we don't….

(Michael McCarthy)

AI isn't the final output, like, we check everything AI does.

(Michael McCarthy)

But when we take that out, it only costs $2,500 a year to run this type of system.

(Michael McCarthy)

When we harness AI for good. Uh, and the third approach, or the third objective of this resource matters, is that timeline that you talked about earlier.

(Michael McCarthy)

Which is, uh, educating the public, and we're still building this out, we're still adding more to it.

(Michael McCarthy)

But it's an attractive timeline that allows you to learn about how disability discourse across America has shaped how we

(Michael McCarthy)

Treat people with disabilities how laws are formed around people with disabilities and policies and things like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and so this summer, we are working to expand, so we're moving from the White House and Cabinet to all

(Michael McCarthy)

100 senators. Um…. And then eventually, we will do all 50 governors,

(Michael McCarthy)

The Supreme Court justices, all of them, all members in the House of Representatives.

(Michael McCarthy)

And then eventually, we're going to create. Um, a way to….

(Michael McCarthy)

Pull public quotes from local leaders, and so that…. Is leveraging AI to scan

(Michael McCarthy)

For public statements across all 3,100 counties in America to capture, like, what school board members are saying,

(Michael McCarthy)

Local mayors for selectman’s, things like that. Um, so yeah.

(Anna Smith

Do you think that this will eventually create. Accountability for those leaders?

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, I think I… that is… that's our hope. Our hope is that….

(Michael McCarthy)

Our first hope is that we can figure out, is this damaging, or…

(Michael McCarthy)

Positive discourse, but right now it's trending in the wrong direction.

(Michael McCarthy)

Going to influence the way we treat people with disabilities and how future policies are developed.

(Michael McCarthy)

Or how current policies may be rescinded, and things like that.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, but it is also a way of accountability. When I think about one of the more challenging things that we have with this initiative, um.

(Michael McCarthy)

Is…we had….Significant success matching how AI score statements with how human score statements.

(Michael McCarthy)

The reason it… the logic and reasoning that AI uses is very close to humans.

(Michael McCarthy)

Using our scoring system. With one exception, and that is with, uh….

(Michael McCarthy)

Currently, and I'm sure it's gonna come up with other politicians, with RFK Jr, because if you listen to how he talks,

(Michael McCarthy)

He doesn't mean…. To demean or demoralize or dehumanize people with disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

What he's saying is…. What his intentions, or the certain words that he uses

(Michael McCarthy)

May not always come across that way, and so…. This website is to help

(Michael McCarthy)

Flag those types of things. Um, I don't want to say everything that he says is like that, because it's….

(Michael McCarthy)

That's not true. Um, some of it is intentionally harmful, but….

(Michael McCarthy)

When we… when we look at some deficit framing language, which is score number 3.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, I think that's where we can make the most difference, is….

(Michael McCarthy)

Teach people that… that are well-intended, that they may be still using a deficit frame when interacting with or talking about people with disabilities.

(Anna Smith)

Really important work. That seems like… yeah, I hope it is.

(Anna Smith

Um, broadened out beyond…. Use as a framework for other things, too.

(Michael McCarthy)

Yeah, I hope so, too.

(Anna Smith)

Um, to wrap it up, uh, we're asking each of our guests, uh.

(Anna Smith)

To recommend a book or a movie about these topics, or just something that really speaks to you?

(Anna Smith)

If you'd like to share.

(Michael McCarthy)

This is tricky, uh, I've been talking a lot, so it's… I'm just gonna go with the norm here and recommend 3 or 4 different things. Uh, so the first is, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

One of the movies that I always recommend people watch nowadays is, um, The Peanut Butter Falcon.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, that….is from Amazon Studios, I believe, so you could be, if you have it, if you're an Amazon Prime member, you should be able to watch it.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, but that follows a…. Individual with Down syndrome who meets somebody.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and they kind of bond. Um…. And the actor, uh… 

(Michael McCarthy)

Zach does have, um…. Does have Down syndrome, and.

(Michael McCarthy)

It's just… it's just worth a watch. I don't want to go into it, I don't want to ruin the movie, but it's… it's….

(Michael McCarthy)

Was unexpected for me. I enjoyed it a lot. And so, some books, uh, there's a book coming out by, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

The director of the lab that I'm working on. And I guess it's like a shameless plug, but.

(Michael McCarthy)

I do think it's really relevant to this, and so it comes out in June.

(Michael McCarthy)

Her name is Dr. Christina Cipriano. It's called Be Unapologetically Impatient.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, during this book, she demonstrates how being unapologetically impatient.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, which requires, like, the activation of intrinsic motivation, emotional intelligence

(Michael McCarthy)

And gratitude is kind of a mindset that could be used to change the way we do things. So, a lot of the things that I talked about

(Michael McCarthy)

During this podcast is that. For… I don't say directly, but we do, as a society, whether in healthcare

(Michael McCarthy)

You know, the medical setting and education, we have to begin to change the way we do things.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, what she does is she draws on her experiences, so she is a mom.

(Michael McCarthy)

Uh, with 4 children, uh, I think 2 or 3 are neurodiverse, including one child with a very rare

(Michael McCarthy)

Chromosome, uh, diagnosis. Um, and so the book….

(Michael McCarthy)

Navigates hurdles that are embedded in the everyday experience. Um, that she has as a mom to these kids, but.

(Michael McCarthy)

It does focus a lot around her oldest son's rare disease journey.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, and she's… she seamlessly, like, throughout the book, waves together, like, decades

(Michael McCarthy)

Of scientific evidence. Um, while telling her story.

(Michael McCarthy)

To…. Interrupt the traditional conventions that

(Michael McCarthy)

Exists across education, medicine, and other industries. Um, so it's definitely worth a read. The other is Life Animated.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, it's a…. It's a, uh, a….

(Michael McCarthy)

Memoir by Ron Susankind. About his son, Owen, who's diagnosed with autism at age 3, and the book tells.

(Michael McCarthy)

Basically, this story about how Owen, basically almost entire… once, once almost entirely non-verbal, reconnected with the world through Disney animated films.

(Michael McCarthy)

And so, he is a gifted artist. And the way he would communicate his feelings and communicate with other people.

(Michael McCarthy)

Is through Disney… through…. Dialogue that occurred within Disney movies, so he, as he's watching his movies, he's memorizing these movies, and.

(Michael McCarthy)

And, funny enough, he only uses, or he predominantly uses, the sidekicks within these Disney movies.

(Michael McCarthy)

To convey how he's feeling, and so the way that the family begins to reconnect with their son

(Michael McCarthy)

Is talking using Disney dialogue, and so they learn how to navigate

(Michael McCarthy)

These… and watch these Disney movies to pull key quotes out

(Michael McCarthy)

To ask him questions, and to converse with them. Um, and, and it, it….

(Michael McCarthy)

I don't know, it's… it's… it's pretty amazing. And the last is.

(Michael McCarthy)

More of, like, um….Uh, like, a textbook style that is pretty accessible. It's by Michael Weymeier, uh.

(Michael McCarthy)

Huge, uh, researcher out of the University of Kansas in the field of intellectual and developmental disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

But it's called… he's the editor of the book, but it's… it's stories from other contributors as well, but it's

(Michael McCarthy)

The Story of Intellectual Disability: An Evolution of Meaning, Understanding, and Public Perception, and it documents in greater detail, uh, what I shared earlier about the history of intellectual disabilities.

(Michael McCarthy)

Um, within this country. So, yeah.

(Anna Smith)

Good, thank you.

(Anna Smith)

Thank you. For being… thank you for the recommendations, thank you for being here on the podcast.

(Michael McCarthy)

Thank you so much, thanks for having me.